Open Cell Vs Closed Cell Foam Insulation
Open Cell Vs Closed Cell Foam
It seems quite a few readers have questions about the difference between open cell and closed cell foam insulation.Understanding the difference between open cell and closed cell foam insulation is the most important step in determining which product is best for your next insulation project.
Foam Insulation Porosity – Vapor Barrier Issue
Open Cell Foam Insulation is a porous material that can allow air and moisture to penetrate the insulation. Closed Cell Foam Insulation is non-porous with all of the voids closed to each other which makes it difficult for water vapor and air to pass through it. The porosity of the two materials is the biggest difference and most important issue. If your insulation application needs a vapor barrier then you MUST select closed cell foam insulation.
Foam Insulation Density – Cost & Strength Issue
The other major difference between open cell and closed cell foam insulation is the density of the in-place foam. Open cell foams typically weigh about 0.5 lbs per cubic foot while closed cell foams are about 3 lbs per cubic foot. Ultimately this is why closed cell foams are stronger and denser allowing them to carry heavier loads. This is also one of the reasons that closed cell foam is quite a bit more expensive compared to open cell foam.
Insulating Value – R Values Per Inch
The final issue when discussing the differences between open cell and closed cell foam insulation is the insulating value or R value per inch of insulation. Open cell foam insulation typically has average R values of about 3.5 per inch while closed cell foam insulation has average R values of about 6.5. So you can see closed cell foam insulation can be almost twice the insulating values per inch.
Photo Credit: Elizabeth Buie
I understand that I should use closed cell in my below grade poured concrete basement walls due to moisture, but what about the above grade rim joist and the above grade wall in the walk out part of the basement? Could you use closed cell or do these parts of a wall need to let moisture vapor pass through?
Matt – I would always use closed cell foam. IMHO open cell should really never be used.
Thanks Todd
Did you mean that you would “Only” use closed cell foam, or Only use closed cell foam when dealing with moisture?
also, is this correct:
Expanded polystyrene foam (EPS)is open cell foam
Extruded polystyrene foam (XPS)is open cell foam
Polyisocyanurate is closed cell foam
Thanks,
Brian
I try to avoid open cell foam altogether to be honest. If you ever get a leak it acts like a sponge. I’ve seen far too many situations where open cell foam turned into a nightmare because it holds water.
EPS – Open Cell
XPS – Closed Cell
Polyiso – Closed Cell
So I can compare better, can you please tell me what the “R” values are of the products below:
> Closed cell foam
> Open cell foam
> Typical standard insulation in a $250K home
> Typical high end insulation in a $500K home
I see R values for Open / Closed, but can’t compare all of the different insulation types.
Last question, for each R value increase, how much energy / utilities does that save a home owner on a typical home (say 2,000 square feet).
Thanks,
Michael – The R values will depend on the manufacturer and thickness.
There is no standard based on the price of a home.
You would need to create an accurate energy model for the home to come up with those numbers.
Hello Todd, I was very upset when I read these forums and it was brought up that EPS is open celled, due to the fact that I completed 90% of my basement insulation with this product. I did some research and EPS is supposedly closed cell phone according to everyone else. Which is it?
And if it is closed cell, do you think I will have future problems? I have a newly built poured concrete basement. The 2″ EPS has a foil facing on it and plastic facing on the other side. Thanks very much..This website has helped me with alot of projects…and has very good information. I cant wait to do the attic hatch!! :)
Thanks,
Dave
David – Are you 100% sure you used EPS? Typically the foil faced foams are either XPS or Polyiso. The confusion comes from the pure definition of EPS which includes closed cell foam balls. The balls of foam are indeed a closed cell foam. However, the structure between balls is NOT. Depending on the brand and manufacturing the porosity of EPS foam can be quite high which makes it in effect an open cell foam.
Wiki:
“Expanded polystyrene (EPS) is a rigid and tough, closed-cell foam. It is usually white and made of pre-expanded polystyrene beads.”
EPS-Foam Company:
“EPS foam by its nature is mostly air, and depending on the density of the foam, there will be more or less air between the fused closed cell beads of EPS. The higher the density, the more beads and consequently the less space for air between the beads.
There is some confusion between water absorption with EPS foam and fusion of the beads. Because of the porosity of the foam, the water absorption is a product of how much air or space there is between the closed cell beads of EPS. It is therefore possible to have foam that has low water absorption and poor fusion, which makes for a poor quality product for use as a surfboard or paddleboard product.”
Make sense?
Thanks for the quick reply. I will check when I get home and will send you a picture.
All aside , tho I have 90% completed, and have not even started on the rim joists yet…I had a increase of 6 degrees F so far….my nonheated basement stays a firm 60 degrees F even with drastic temperature changes.
Thanks,
Dave
Gentlemen,
Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) is a closed cell foam that is still permeable. What does that mean? Well at 1 inch it has a perm of 2.5 perms or if graphite enhanced expanded polystyrene is tested it will measure 3.0 to 3.5 perms. Graphite enhanced expanded polystyrene has similar R-value to extruded foams & is more cost effective. I spent 9 years with Dow & I can attest that 15, 20, & 25 psi expanded polystyrene is a closed cell foam & the fact that it is permeable helps it to maintain 95% of its stated R-value for its lifetime. Extruded polystyrene foam while a good product can’t make that same claim. They limit their warranties to typically 30 years or less.
Hello Todd my question is this i’m building a metal home and want to use spray foam insulstion and i’m getting some confusing info on the difference between open cell and closed cell foam. One company i spoke with says to use open cell on the ceiling and walls, another co. says to use 2″ closed cell on the ceiling and 4″ open cell on the walls. please help!!!!
Mike – Metal buildings can be different that wood constructed ones. However, metal buildings are typically commercial buildings which have far better HVAC systems in place to deal with humidity.
What type of framing?siding? finishes are you using? Without that information it’s difficult at best to pass judgement.
Hi Todd. I’m reading all of the information everywhere about the closed vs open foam. Everywhere has said use the closed if you can afford it. We have a 40yr old home in Southwest Louisiana. It’s hot! 95degree days, 80/90% humidity. I recently had a bid to spray the attic, vents….and decided on the closed cell. BUT, when our A/C fan motor went out and I called our A/C guy, we talked about the two options and he said I wanted open cell NOT closed! I’m so confused. Can you shed any light on the matter?
Thanks,
Alicia
Alicia,
I completely disagree and I’m not the only one. Take a look at the following link with an article from JLC. http://www.greenhorizon.com/files/JLC%20-%20Insulating%20Unvented%20Attics%20With%20Spray%20Foam.pdf
Open cell will absorb moisture and cause all kinds of damage to the framing.
Good luck.
We’re starting construction on our basement in the next few days. I want to make sure the construction company uses the right type of insulation and doesn’t try to “go cheap” or use the wrong thing. So I’ve learned here that we should use closed cell. What R value is best? Also, can you recommend a few manufacturer’s names for quality closed cell insulation with good R value?
Thanks for your advice.
Tee – What detail is being used? Are they using foam board? foam spray? Both DOW and Owens-Corning are standard brands.
Hi! My husband and I have heard conflicting views on foam insulation as well. we are building a home on a custom built flat bed trailer. It’s 6in deep. We were considering closed cell but were worried about the remaining 3in air gap. And which would be better: spray foam boards or having a company spray it? Also, we weren’t sure if closed or open would be a better bet. Any and all advice appreciated.
Thanks.
Kurstin – I only recommend closed cell foam. Open cell foam can absorb water and that’s a bad thing! Spray foam is always better than sheets, but it comes at a price. Good luck.
20 units of a Gatlinburg, TN complex have bathroom copper water lines in contact with the 8″ block outside wall. With mid-teens temp for an extended time-the lines will freeze and rupture. I am
assigned to find an “economical” solution. I proposed using 2″
closed cell foam board with Hardy cement stucco covering the foam
and trimmed with wood for esthetics. In your opinion, am I wasting
time and money with this fix?
Gary – The 2″ foam should work well. You lost me on the Hardi board…is that a finished exposed surface? Just curious.
Hello:
Thank you for your time and advice.
I have a metal roofed Lainai. It has open cell foam blocks between to metal layers, one being the ceiling and the other the roof. It is supported by light metal I beams 16 inches apart. It is a noisy and hot situation. I spent money to replace all the windows and doors with thermo pane.
My question has to do with installation of radiant barrier with insulation backing between the layers of the metal roof. The radiant barrier requires at least one inch space between roof and the barrier. Do you think I should remove the styrofoam all together and drape the barrier across the beams. That would give me about three inches space. Or is the open cell styrofoam porous enough to give the the spacing I need. One other thought was to remove the styrofoam, drape the radiant barrier, then replace the styrofoam over the radiant barrier and finally screw the metal panels back in place. The manufacturer, Prodex, says the radiant barrier has an R value of R16. The Prodex radiant barrier is 5mm, 13/64 inch, of polyethylene foam with layers of reflective aluminum foil on each side. Please give me your thoughts.
Again, thank you for your expertise and time.
Phil Ragan
Phillip – Radiant barriers work by deflecting radiant heat. They are usually installed below the roofing surface, but above the insulation layer (in a typically attic situation). In that application the air space prevents heat from transferring to the insulation layer. So ideally you’d have the roof, the radiant barrier, air space, then insulation, then ceiling material. For your application I’m not sure that’s entirely possible. If it were my place, I’d install a continuous layer of closed cell foam over the support beams, then the roofing. Best of luck.
I’m a contractor in Minn. Is it true that closed cell does not stop sound and have you used a combo system in walls for instance 2″ closed cell and say fiberglass or open cell foam to fill the cavity to help with sound?
building a custom home,have a vaulted ceiling with 2×8 rafters,1/2 in osb,30 lb felt paper,3/4 in lathing then metal standing seam roof.I need to insulate 2x8s.what do u recommend? thinking about 2″ closed cell then 6 fiberglass.
Tim – Is this a house? shop? the answer depends on the use, and what the local energy code says. 8″ deep rafters are nearly impossible to insulate sufficiently without installing something either on top. or below the rafters.
Hi Todd:
Very informative information on your web site. We want remove the blown in insulation of this 25 yr old house and put in foam insulation in the attic and the space above the garage approximately 1,220 sq ft. Some installers tell me they foam and then blow in insulation; I am not sure that makes sense? You have convinced me closed cell foam is the preferred choice. We live in Northern Virginia temps range from -10 to 110 degrees Fahrenheit. What brand name or type of closed foam do you recommend?
Joel – Can you tell me a bit more about your project? Sounds like you have blown in insulation int he attic floor above the ceiling below? Not exactly sure what you’re looking to do, if you’re looking to spray foam the bottom of the roof above, that’s changing the house insulation envelope to an unvented attic which wouldn’t use blown insulation at all. I’d need to know more specifics.
Hello,
I need your input, if you don’t mind. I’m building a rock/log home in S. Korea. The walls are wet stacked, (no basement). After finishing each wall segment, I applied mortar to the interior, thinking that it would suffice as a moisture barrier. I was mistaken, so I applied a coat of tile grout over the mortar; it works in bathrooms, so it seemed logical that it would work anywhere there is a serious moisture issue. I also applied ceramic tile on the walls to a height of 4 feet. Korea gets hit yearly by typhoons, which drives rain almost parallel onto the walls, so I had that to think about, also
The interior walls will be standard stick construction with 2″ foam board behind the studs.
Will the grout/tile/foam board suffice to keep moisture from entering the structure?
Thank you!
Tristan – Mortar, grout, neither will stop moisture from the inside in my opinion. That’s like trying to plug a hole in a damn with your finger. The pressure from outside is too great. The moisture needs to be stopped from the outside.
Hi, I have been thinking about how to insulate the concrete block walls on the home I live in.I thought it would be a good idea to use the block as a thermal mass to hold heat and use 3″ of Blue Board insulation on the outside. Maybe I could buy the insulation with OSB bonded to one side and screw or use some type of adhesive to fasten the panels to the block and cover them with housewrap and siding. I would extend the insulation without the OSB on down past the crawl space to the footer and cover it with something and backfill. Any moisture in the block that wicks up from the footer could dry to the inside behind the drywall, which I would vent, top and bottom of each stud space. The inside being furred out 1 1/2″ with 2″ x 4″s. Does this sound like a good idea to you?
Tom….you should read this article: http://www.homeconstructionimprovement.com/how-to-insulate-basement-walls/ and http://www.homeconstructionimprovement.com/vapor-barriers-for-basement-insulation/
You REALLY need insulation on the inside. After you read those let me know if you have questions. Good luck.
Hi Guys, we’re planning to build a six plex unit house with no basement but have a second floor plus design the attic cavity so it will be also livable and will be build out of precast concrete sandwich panels and I’m look to get the best r value of the insulation to get us to at least an R30. Which is the best Styrofoam to use, to keep our wall less than 12″ since our precast is 3″ on the outside panel and 3″ on the inside panel. Martin Hofer
You’ll need about 5 inches of closed cell spray foam to get R30.
Todd,
I am interested in foam insulation not just because of its thermal qualities. I am building on the boundary of a busy rail corridor. How do the two types compare in regards to sound-proofing?
Great question…i’m not entirely sure….I would assume they are similar.
Does it make sense to spray a thin layer (1″) of closed cell in wall cavities and fill the remaining void with wet spray cellulose?
The benefit is cost savings and no open cavity for air circulation. Are their negatives I am not aware of?
This is fairly common with fiberglass, 1″ to air seal, then the remainder with spray foam. We’re seeing less of this as spray foam costs have come down quite a lot.
Hey Todd,
Getting ready to insulate attic in my home to create an upstairs bonus room. Wood frame, of course, should I use closed or open foam?
Thanks!
I prefer closed cell foam. I’m not a fan of open cell at all.
I have an outside basement wall and have white insulation 11/2″ with foil backing with similar white backing on other side.Is this appropriate and which side would be adhered to basement wall.thank you
Is there a name brand on it? Which side is against the concrete? Is it sealed?
My daughter lives in our inground basement home which shouldn’t be cold but is. Three sides are under ground only the front and roof is above. she has a heat pump with air. Her electric always runs $250 summer and $400 and up in winter. I want to help and don’t know whether to replace with a regular furnace and air like I have costing me $120 summer to $250 in winter or to do closed cell insulation in the walls. do I have to have the drywall on all outer walls took down or can it be sprayed in through drilled holes? The attic which is really low only sitting room no standing has the roll out insulation.
Insulation is the best investment…..basements can be cool/damp….insulating them and getting proper ventilation can really help.